Security Signal: Resilience Reimagined

<v Jeff Gatz>Resiliency and security is actually a culture issue. It's not a technology issue. So I think the best thing that any company can do is how do you build a culture of security. <v Khalid Kark>Hello, everybody. Uh, my name is Khaled Clark and I'm here, uh, joined today by Jeff Gatz, who is the VP of Global Alliances at ndl. Welcome Jeff to, to our conversation. Thank you. Um, our conversation today is, uh, called Resilience Reimagined. Um, of course a lot of, uh, people have experiencing the, the issues with third parties that they've got for a long time. Compliance landscape is changing pretty rapidly. Uh, and then recently geopolitical, uh, aspects are also changing pretty rapidly. So, uh, of course resilience needs to be. Not rethought, reimagined, uh, as as we speak. Um, so one of the things that, uh, we kind of put out, we, we put out this signals report that talks about major shifts that are happening, um, in cybersecurity that C-Suite executives need to worry about. And one of the things we pointed out was resilience as a concept needs to be rethought a little bit. Um, so. Let's start, maybe let's jump in, uh, and and, and kind of get your perspective on how do you think the threat landscape is changing with respect to, specifically with respect to organizations thinking about resilience. <v Jeff Gatz>Well, it's, it's interesting. So we're all reimagining it in real time as it works. Absolutely. Just with the rapid pace of change, and I think when you look at. Resiliency is a topic. A lot of times what you're thinking of is really sort of your backup and recovery. Uh, you know, your DRA type of partners, right? Commvault your rubric. We really like those, but that's just one very small aspect of the concept of resiliency. And what you're really looking for is resiliency throughout sort of the full seven layer stack, but then in the partners that you choose and partners that NDL chooses to go to market with. Where do we have trust in supply chain? Front of house, back of house, right? And think if we think of the IT infrastructure and architecture, and what that really comes down to is resiliency and policy. Resiliency and connectivity. And because what are you really solving for? So at Kyndryl, we like to think about minimum viable company in terms of resiliency, right? What does that really mean? It means that if you were, when you have, and hopefully you don't, but we believe it's a, when you have that catastrophic event. Whether that's malware, whether that's a nation state, whatever that happens to be, what are, what is your minimum viable set of applications, and that is for the external and internal users to protect your services, to protect your brand, and to protect your C-suite. And so from a recovery perspective, you have to look at the full continuum of infrastructure in order to do that, which does require complete reimagining. It can't just be how fast is my snapshot? What's my R-P-O-R-T-O, right? Those things are, yes, those are table stakes, but how do you bring the whole thing back up? And I, you know, I think the best and easiest example is, okay, you switched over to your backup data center. How do you re IP, how do you re, how do you re DNS everything so the clients and the users can get to those applications, which is functionally your brand externally. <v Khalid Kark>Sure, sure. And we just had a conversation earlier, uh, around AI impacting cybersecurity. Um, so yeah, I know it's a, it's a whole can of worms to, uh, to, to kind of jump into. Right. But how, how does, how does that change. You've kind of laid out the whole spectrum of what resiliency is. Mm-hmm. Um, does that change anything in that spectrum or does that change the way we deal with that spectrum, uh, from, from your perspective? <v Jeff Gatz>So, yes and yes. Uh, so, uh, one of, one of my personal good friends over at the Sands Institute like to talk about AI as a double-edged sword. Uh, so I'm very much borrowing from him in that statement. Uh, but as we look at ai, it becomes. Both the weapon and also the defense against what's happening out there. And I think the major change that we're gonna see is the evolution of agentic AI. If you think about, if you think about the attack patterns, if you think about the surfaces that are under threat, right? Most of those have been, there's a human, even if it's a human with a script, really kicking off those attack patterns. <v Khalid Kark>Sometimes not a human either. <v Jeff Gatz>Well, that's where the agenda to AI gets really scary for me personally, right? It's just a user in the world, right? Now we have autonomous systems that are, you know, just the sophistication of those attacks without getting into the deep conversation, which, which is three days long. But the sophistication of those attack and the evolution of those attacks are where resiliency needs to be designed in. And so if you think of, you know, like the work workers that, uh, Cloudflare has as part of that, how do you help that scale? And how can gen AI or agent AI be the response to that within the policies in order to protect it? And I think that really is the double-edged sword. AI is only good as the model and only as good as you've trained it, right? And so how do we come together as an industry to respond to those threats that are, that are rapidly evolving? <v Khalid Kark>One of the things that a lot of companies worry about is how, I mean, of course, and we've got an increasing ecosystem of partners, whether they're AI or cybersecurity or other technology partners and so on. And third party risks has have increased significantly, um, recently a lot more as well. Any thoughts, any perspectives on how companies deal with things outside of their, their organizations? Are you seeing companies think about resiliency in the broader context of their ecosystems and how is that evolving, uh, from your perspective? <v Jeff Gatz>Very much so, and I, I think that goes to some of the macro political issues that we're, we're dealing with these days. But I think supply chain trust is probably that core element that you're talking about there. So. One of the things that we do is Kyndryl, and we're certainly not unique in this, but one of the things that we do is we make sure that we do that verification and that we have, um, API hooks into the supply chains so we can verify. And some of that can be as very simple as, can I deliver the products on time? And some of it is, you know, do we have sort of that all the way backend flow through? Is that coming from a trusted source? Right. Was there an interruption in that source where maybe a bad, bad actor inserted something into that supply chain? A gray market? Is definitely a concern. You know, customers are always looking to, you know, save costs. Gray market's not the way to do that. So that supply chain verification, and that is a, a huge part of resiliency because if your resiliency, um, uh, go to market, if you will, is based upon trust and you're not verifying all the way back to the manufacturer. And that, you know, again, very deep in the supply chain, then the whole thing can fall apart. <v Khalid Kark>Yeah. World Economic Forum came up and they did, they asked people what is your number one risk? And third party risk was, was number one for 54%. And so to your point, that supply chain risk is as we become a entities that are much more intertwined than we were in the past, uh, becomes a big part of the resiliency conversation. So. Um, let, let's maybe move on to, uh, industries, organizations, how they're changing as, as a response to, uh, resilience. Uh, and, and, and kind of what are some effective, maybe operating models or, or how are companies thinking about responding to this increased threat vector, the increased supply chain kind of risks, increased geopolitical risks, et cetera. I. How do, how do companies react, respond to some of these risks and, and what are they doing, if anything, different? <v Jeff Gatz>Yeah. Well, resiliency and security is actually a culture issue. It's not a technology issue, right? Sure. Technology's enabler there. So as we look at that culture shift, you really have to have everybody, um, really moving. So you have to have the tools in place to do it. You have to have the policy and then you have to make sure that, um, that human element of it. That everybody's on board from a culture perspective and that they understand it. I think, you know, one of the things we, as people, we all get really irritated when somebody says, thou shalt, and they don't give us a reason why. Right? What, why do we have to go do it? And so if we look at the finance regulated industries is the easy way to say it. But certainly I've dealt with those, uh, some of our customers in finance and in healthcare where they do a really great job of the training, right? So they talk about the architecture, what are the controls they're putting in place? Right. And they say, Hey, this update's coming out. Here's why this is important, right? So why are we gonna go passwordless? Or what does two factor look like for us? Um, here are the policies in place. Here's what we're monitoring on your system and here's why. So you've gotta build that buy-in to make that happen, or else that human element, again, it takes one chink in the armor as we've all seen with ransomware, right, to cause that problem. So I think the best thing that any company can do, and certainly what we consult on with, with our, uh, customers. Is how do you build a culture of security, right? That's self-sustaining. And you need, again, the tools, the process, the technology, and the people to all buy in. The good ones have done that, though. There are still a lot that are still working through it. <v Khalid Kark>One thought I was, I was talking to, uh, CISO and he said something interesting. Love to get your perspective on it because you have a pretty broad view across, um, some of the vendors in this landscape as well. Mm-hmm. And, and he said that one of the things that I look for is where can I actually take out the human element as much as possible from this where I don't have to train somebody to respond to a certain thing, I just take out that threat vector through technology, right? Mm-hmm. And so, um, our company's thinking about it that way, where you say, well, we all know phishing has been the biggest bane in everybody's existence because. Irrespective of whatever training you do, one out of 10 people is still gonna fall for it in some way, shape or form, right? Sure. And so, um, so, so how do you actually, as an ecosystem, how do we as companies think about this in terms of how do we eliminate those human error? Uh, capabilities and are you seeing any progress in that risk? So we're <v Jeff Gatz>always seeing progress. And I think the efficacy, if you just look at, at mail, uh, mail security, right? The efficacy of mail security is upwards, I think of 98, 99% based on the various solutions are out there, whether that's Microsoft or Cisco or whoever, right? In terms of the mail security. But again, that, that answer wasn't a hundred percent right, exactly. Uh, and the, the attackers are very sophisticated. So yes, we are absolutely seeing that. We wanna reduce the risk as much as possible. And we're gonna leverage technology to do that. But I think it goes back to one of mile time favorite phrases. And that's trust but verify, right? So you have to, you can, you can implement the best technology in the world and maybe at someday we get to a hundred percent and I can't wait for that. And maybe Gen AI and agent AI can help us keep checking that mark, right? Um, but we're always gonna have to have that full continuum. So yes, we see it. We wanna remove the threat vectors. I completely agree with that. CISO. Uh, but we also know that nothing is a hundred percent foolproof because the adversaries in this space are always, they're, uh, they're sharp. <v Khalid Kark>Well, I mean, I, I agree, but I think as companies, we also need to start to rethink cybersecurity because whatever we've been doing, um, we're still falling. We're still having, uh, people fall for it. Right. Hundred percent. So, so, so, so maybe AI and ML can help us. Mm-hmm. Maybe they, maybe we come up with models where we're able to predict. Certain types of phishing or certain types of risks, supply chain risks are, uh, are addressed, um, before they actually get to the, uh, to the, to the people side of things and the end users. <v Jeff Gatz>You know, there's a, there's a, there's a couple elements. I think as you know, we're really, we've been talking about Gen AI for a few years, right? Uh, and especially as it comes to security. It's been a fairly hot topic for the last 12 months. But we are still nascent relative to the Gen AI evolution, right? So three years from now, we probably have a hard time really predicting what that looks like. Uh, and so I think you're, you're absolutely right, there are, there are evolutions, not just revolutions that are gonna happen, right? Or evolutions and revolutions that will happen as Gen AI continues to mature as we understand how to protect it. But, you know, you look at those language models and we can look at, you know, sandwich attacks and poisoning of the language model that occur, right? So. I think we, again, it's always a balance. Technology is a great tool, but it requires the mastery that we have as IT practitioners and security practitioners to ensure that our customers are there, so, and they're taking advantage of it. I think that's maybe the other element of it is, of course we can come out with the greatest technology solution ever, and if they don't turn that on and they don't tie it into their operational model and they don't do those, those pieces to really make it effective. It's there, but it's not doing the job we intended it to do. And that's our job as a global systems integrator and managed service provider to go do that. And we love partnering with, you know, Cloudflare to make those things happen, but the customer also has to buy in with both of us. Yeah. <v Khalid Kark>And, and, and I think Absolutely right. And I think we've tried to, yeah. And Cloudflare tried to make it seamless where a lot of these threat vectors through ml, through other capabilities that. Are addressed before they get to the, to your networks, to your environments, et cetera. Yeah. So, so, but I think that mindset needs to start to evolve for us to shift and as an industry from individual threat protection to collective, maybe network protection. <v Jeff Gatz>Totally agree. And this is what I love about really our partnership with Cloudflare, right? As we look at the traditional back of the house infrastructure providers, right? And you guys are bringing that to. Really, again, that policy is built into your infrastructure, right? So you look at all of your points of presence that you have across the globe, how they scale, how they respond, your ability to do fast switching between sites for reliability. And if you think about it, reliability and availability are huge parts of security, right? That policy, consistency, connectivity, consistency, right? And so that becomes a, a really important point of the architecture and solution to our customers. And you guys approach it differently than others do, and that is such a powerful tool. Two, two topics that we haven't touched on. Okay. One <v Khalid Kark>is compliance, right? <v Jeff Gatz>and I'm sorry, where's the door? Are we done? Yeah. Yeah. So, so, <v Khalid Kark>you know, things, things are changing there too. Yeah. And, uh, uh, Deloitte had this survey, uh, where they said 62% of companies are saying, uh, they're gonna significantly increase their investments in autonomous compliance. Mm-hmm. What are you seeing there? Is that, is that something? Sorry, I couldn't agree more. Real. So <v Jeff Gatz>compliance, so HIPPA, Dora, GDPR. Right. Um, you know, again, those laws are entrenched and they're really important for the nations or economic zones that they're, they're a part of. Right. And uh, obviously we look at just personal data for us. Yeah. We wanna make sure that's protected and secured. But as this has evolved and these, and these policies are overlapping from a compliance perspective, um. Audits and compliance. Resiliency, I actually think needs to be baked into the architecture and needs to be part of the fundamental set of tools. Uh, and I joked earlier 'cause I, you know, used to be actually, you know, fingers on keyboard guy and the audit people would come around and I'd develop a cold real quick and be like, ah, I can't come in. Never really got out of the job, but, uh, but still had to do, still had to prove that, you know, we were compliant. Yeah. Yes. But we have to have an audit automated way of looking across all these great technologies that we use, how the users are implementing them, what the external factors are, and make sure that we're actually compliant and it has to be real time. You know, you think about scope creep and the amoeba like effect of, you know, I brought this tool in, it did this, now it does these other three things, how it grows. No person can reasonably keep their arms around the rapid evolution of technology as it relates to compliance and, and making sure that's auditable. Yeah. So, uh, for us, those hooks into your tools via API. Driving that into the broader security suite conversation is a table stakes conversation. But you're right, customers are just now getting on board for that. Because, you know, I mean, audit people love to make sure that everything's buttoned up. So you have to audit the audit in order to be, to get there. So it's a really important motion that we're going through with our customers, uh, and we expect that, especially with Gen AI, uh, to evolve rapidly. <v Khalid Kark>Yeah, and I think the one aspect that kind of adds to the complexity of all that is we are predicting and seeing this happen is there's gonna be an explosion of compliance requirements being thrown at companies. And there's no way to do it manually one by one. No. And so, so you can't do it by region. You can't, I mean, you have to have, um, automation there to be able to really live going forward. Otherwise you're gonna be buried in, in, in dealing with a lot of that. <v Jeff Gatz>Agreed. <v Khalid Kark>Um, so the second is investments. And, um, and of course, uh, long are the days, uh, gone where you walked in and, and the board gave you whatever you wanted, et cetera. Um. CISO, they're being asked more and more around what is the value of these investments mm-hmm. That we're making in resiliency. Right. And so any thoughts on how that is evolving for, for your clients? For, for, for the marketplace in general? And then I had a specific question maybe gives you kind of five seconds to think about it. Sure. Where would you tell companies to invest in compliance if they were. If they were looking at the, the, the spectrum of opportunities that they have today, if they had to invest in one or two areas Sure. What, what would they be? <v Jeff Gatz>So, lemme ask you your first question, which I think will dovetail nicely into the second one. Um, so I think what we're seeing from a investment perspective, securities top of mind, um, you know, any of those events can end your company. So they're not optional investments, but in saying that, what we're seeing is consolidation. And what I mean by that is we're seeing more, and Kyra certainly went down this journey. There's a lot of great companies out there, but you know this sort of best of breed, I'll use 700 different vendors to solve three problems. By integrating together the technology partners we have, like Cloudflare have become so advanced and check so many boxes. What we're looking for is what are our trusted technology partners and how do we leverage the most of their ecosystem, right? That allows us to centralize our spend. It allows us to keep fragmentation from happening. And it also allows us to train fewer people on more skills, right? So deeply integrated, right? So, 'cause if you think about the cost, it's still not licensing, it's still not infrastructure. It is the people cost to manage it. Those people are incredibly talented. We need them to be as deeper in those solutions to drive more value out of them. So that's certainly part of it. It is a balance between, uh, some of the tech debt that we certainly see today. That's still a very real thing. And then how do we modernize that tech debt, you know? Um. Networking as part of Gen AI and as part of, you know, coming, still coming out of COVID and some of the tech debt that's there. Networking's exciting. Again, lots of innovations in this space. Lots of things happening with the hyperscalers from a connectivity, SaaS, PaaS, IAS perspective. And so really that hybrid cloud mentality of connectivity needs to be upgraded, right? So what we see is happening, um, as part of that conversation is never think of networking and security as two separate things. Hundred percent. There are the two things that touch everything, right? So that is the place to do it. So stop putting 'em in two separate buckets, consolidate those, um, uh, reconsolidate those requests for investment. I think it's the nicest way to say it to the board members and really get more bang for your buck. Um, so that's kind of, that's kind of where we see it. I, yeah, I <v Khalid Kark>think, I wouldn't agree with you more. I think the, the notion of networks. And security being separate is, is, I mean if you're still doing it, you are probably creating a huge risk for your environment. Yeah. Doing it that way. So, <v Jeff Gatz>and, and, and I think if, you know, somebody were to ask me a very humble opinion of, you know, where do you invest? You probably invested in a lot of platforms the last five to six years and you know, in that tech debt that you have, and I don't mean that in a negative way. Great companies probably solve the problem. I really think a consulting engagement. To look at, you know, KY looks at it as a kind of a subway roadmap, right? You got a thousand different stops. You could be on which boxes have you checked, which one you haven't. Yep. But what are those two or three things based on what you've solved for and what you need to solve for, or going to give you a complete view. Right? Are you still just in the secure services Edge motion? Are you looking at SaaS-e as an outcome? Is it more about compliance and auditability? Right? There are very specific things you can do that aren't heavy investments. Right. That can really move the needle from a threat landscape perspective for you. But you need to know kind of where you're at and then what have you invested in that you're not getting the most out of? What investments have you made that maybe aren't getting the ROI that you should stop making? And then consolidating that and then picking those one or two projects. And again, that's why the security practitioners are so important as they understand what's latest, what's happening, and how can you really move the needle. <v Khalid Kark>So, so in other words, what you're saying is prioritize and make sure that you're aware of your risk appetite because that prioritization is gonna come from that. And, and, and sometimes a consulting engagement may help, sometimes just internally thinking about it may, may come up with an answer. Yeah. Uh, but, but I think you're right. Also, the fact that a lot of times we end up using outside perspectives to think about this as. A lot of us are too deep into it where it's hard to figure out the prioritization. Um, and, and really thinking, thinking broadly across, what risks are you able to respond to and which, which ones are not. <v Jeff Gatz>Yeah, and I don't want, I don't wanna name names here, right? 'cause that would be bad. But, um, we, we have had some engagements recently where we know, we've looked at several different vendors who's the trusted technology partners, who are, they're looking at internally and they were asking about bringing a new one in, and we just sort of raised our hand and said, um, you are aware that the product you already bought. Does that and you already have the license for it. And it was news to them and we were like, okay, so I'm really sorry to tell you that. And then, you know, you know, there you've sort of got the company looking at each other, right? So there's, there's kind of both of those. Um, and I think that's where those outside perspectives working closely with, you know, at GSI, hopefully it's ndl and it's, you know, with Cloudflare working closely with us, you know, where we have those deep partnerships, where we understand what they have today and what's on the roadmap and how can we start solving for it with a smaller ecosystem that's still best of breed. But you're, you're actually able to check more boxes. And again, that consistency by consolidating your vendors is just really critical in the security space. <v Khalid Kark>Yeah, and I, the one thing I'd say is everybody calls themselves a platform. Make sure that you check they're actually a platform, right? <v Jeff Gatz>I hate you, you know, this, this whole, Hey, we're all a platform. I'm like, are you? Yeah. No, I, I totally agree. Right. Uh, yeah, it's, it's a huge piece and we understand the move to that. Um, and, you know, customers are still gonna ultimately balance, they don't wanna have all their eggs in one basket, so there's gonna be multiple partners in there as there should be, but I think you can get more with doing less. So we like to think of it as focus in ndl, um, right. And, you know, what we love is that, you know, in our partnership with you guys, you're part of that focus group. <v Khalid Kark>Got it. Um, last question and then we'll move to rapid fire. Sure. Um, the, so, so where do you see this all going next? And, and again, of course. We all tend to kind of talk about projections and so on. Mm-hmm. Nobody can really predict more than 12 to 18 months. No. Um, so maybe let's, let's kind of narrow down, uh, future to that 12 to 18 months. Um, okay. Where do you see resiliency is, is moving any, any specific trajectories or trends that you're seeing? Uh, from that perspective, <v Jeff Gatz>uh, I, I think it really comes on the infrastructure side of the house. Uh, 'cause we're certainly seeing a lot of customers investing in the data center infrastructure. Uh, and that's really important and we see that as, you know, sort of a balancing with our hyperscaler partners. We know that the hyperscalers are critical to the business outcomes, but we also see, especially with Gen AI, with the amount of data that's being stored in the highly regulated environments, we're seeing an upgrade there. And so we expect that that's going to drive some of the secondary behavior around the connectivity and the security policies at the edge. So I think as we look at the next 12 to 18 months, we're gonna continue to see investment and reinvestment into data centers. And then our job is to make sure that we don't treat that as a single thing. And what I like to always tell our teams is if you've touched the application, you've touched the traffic patterns. Which means you've touched the wan, so do it. All right? So you've gotta touch it all, even if it's a long-term plan for the customer. Um, so that's, that's where we see those investments happening. And certainly, you know, again, we still have all of the software players in this space. We have to secure those as well. But, but from my standpoint, we think that infrastructure investments gonna be critical. <v Khalid Kark>And and you think that infrastructure investment is gonna be in, in data centers or in, in the cloud or a combination or? It's gonna be both. <v Jeff Gatz>Okay. It's gonna be both. Okay. Um. Uh, you know, we think about just, uh, the way that Google, Microsoft, and AWS move, the market, the trust they have with our customers. Certainly what we're doing sees that. But we're seeing in finance and healthcare, again, a balancing, right? It's just a balancing. So we believe hybrid cloud is the way forward. And again, for every customer that might be a different mix. Uh, but you know, pure in the cloud, customers are certainly gonna be out there. So it's never, it's never black and white ones and zeros, but for us and our customer base, hybrid cloud is absolutely where we see it. <v Khalid Kark>Got it. All right. Ready for rapid fire? <v Jeff Gatz>Let's go. <v Khalid Kark>All right. Um, if you had to describe the current state of cybersecurity. What one word You've got one word you're gonna use to describe that. <v Jeff Gatz>Uh, I'm gonna go with evolving. <v Khalid Kark>Evolving. Okay. Great. Yeah. That's never gonna stop. Nope. Figure that's a safe <v Jeff Gatz>answer. <v Khalid Kark>Okay. Um, what's the one buzz buzzword in security or tech that you wish, uh, we could retire? <v Jeff Gatz>Gen AI. <v Khalid Kark>Jenny, I'm okay. All right. Already, already, already, already. At the beginning of, uh, yeah. Of where we are. Um, okay. Um, what is the biggest obstacle in, uh, managing risks today? And I have a couple of options, but you can pick your own, uh, complacency scale. Complexity or something <v Jeff Gatz>else. It's complexity. I had complexity in my head before you've read the list. <v Khalid Kark>Okay, great. <v Jeff Gatz>Yep. <v Khalid Kark>In five years, corporate leaders will need to be fluent in <v Jeff Gatz>quantum. <v Khalid Kark>Quantum. That's the one. Um, actually they should be fluent in it now. They, they definitely be, a lot of cyber leaders should be fluent in now and so is <v Jeff Gatz>coming. Uh, but five years, uh, it as a science experiment will not be a thing. I know this is rapid fire, but that's a whole good conversation. <v Khalid Kark>Fair enough. What's one book, podcast or show that's surprisingly relevant to how you think about cybersecurity or leadership? <v Jeff Gatz>So I'm gonna go a little bit old school, right? Uh, go ahead. This is gonna be a long one. So, uh, I was just talking about this the other day, but it's, uh, the book, born to Run. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, but it talks about the biomechanics that we were born to run. Right? So that's, that's who we are. We have to find the natural state of doing this. It can't always be pushing water up a hill, right? It has to be part of our natural movement within it. That is a really, <v Khalid Kark>really good advice for a lot of IT leaders. Yeah. Is, is to. Figure out ways to sustain yourself for the long term, so That's right. Completely agree. Thank you. This has been a phenomenal conversation. Um, I really enjoyed and learned a lot and, uh, uh, and we have a series of these conversations coming up. Uh, uh, we have the next one is, uh, the perimeter problem where there's no perimeter anymore. So, so of course it's a, it's a problem. Um, and then we've got resiliency reimagined that we just talked about, um, in our, uh. Post quantum, uh, the, the, the quantum conversation, we have a, a, a conversation on that. And then agile security. So we, uh, we, we kind of worked on these big issues that not just the cyber people, but also the C-suite executives need to know about and think about collectively. So. Again, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate, uh, your presence and, uh, it was a, it was a fun conversation. <v Jeff Gatz>Appreciate you, thanks for the partnership and I look forward to listening to those other ones. Thank you.